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Thunder Valley Roulette

4/6/2022
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NicksGamingStuff
As many of you know in California the dice or drop of a ball cannot directly affect the outcome of a game, which is why cards are used in craps and roulette in many of the CA Native American casinos. Here is a scenario that I found very interesting; Thundervalley has this mechanical roulette game, it is not the video roulette game that is common, it is its own unit where about six people can sit around it. There is a screen where you can place your bets sort of like in rapid roulette at many of the Vegas casinos. Then a ball flings out onto the roulette wheel and it spins and drops into a slot, quite like traditional roulette. I figured in this scenario the ball did directly result in the outcome of the game which would be against CA gaming law. Anyone have any thoughts on this? If there was a loophole in the law where the video screen being used to make the bets the casinos could perhaps create a craps game that used real dice but had players sit at a screen to place their bets.
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I have also been to Delaware Park and saw something similar. The entire wheel had a plastic dome over it, but a ball would pop out and spin and land in its place. No dealer or supervision. I was intrigued, but it had Double Zero, while the Bally electronic machines had Single, so it seemed like playing it was not smart. But I wondered how it was legal with the 'No Table Games' rule. Must be a predetermined outcome based on a computer that just tells the ball where to land, maybe with a magnet? Anyone else see the ones in Delaware?
jpprovance
chumash had one about 2-3 years ago and they took it out.
Wizard
Administrator
There is a game like that at Barona too. I'm surprised it is legal. As I understand the California law, the roulette ball and wheel alone may not determine the outcome, which is clearly the case with Rapid Roulette and any imitations. If anyone can explain to me what the loophole is, I'm all ears.

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cclub79
If you get a chance to look carefully, there's just something 'not right' about the wheel and the ball. I'm leaning toward what I said earlier, that a computer determines the result, and the ball and wheel are merely a mechanical representation of the outcome. It might use timing to get the ball close to where it must be, and then a magnet to set it in the right slot. If I remember, the ball doesn't 'bounce around'; it spins and then 'drops' into a slot.
pocketaces
Thunder Valley Roulette

If you get a chance to look carefully, there's just something 'not right' about the wheel and the ball. I'm leaning toward what I said earlier, that a computer determines the result, and the ball and wheel are merely a mechanical representation of the outcome. It might use timing to get the ball close to where it must be, and then a magnet to set it in the right slot. If I remember, the ball doesn't 'bounce around'; it spins and then 'drops' into a slot.


Very interesting. For comparison, I've observed the domed e-roulette (not at a California casino) and it always bounces around like a regular roulette wheel. The occasional spin is quick with little to no bouncing but most are more drawn out with significant bouncing. The profile of the slots is a bit deeper than the usual live-dealt wheel, which they are probably able to do because there is no betting allowed after the spin has started. But really it is the exact same as the regular game, except without a human dealer. There is definitely nothing strange about the spin.
Now, if it always simply spins and drops immediately, it sounds like it is predetermined. Pretty crazy that they were able to do that in a technical sense and make it look somewhat real. Of course its mathematically the same as normal roulette, assuming they use a RNG, but superstitious players will not like what this machine does if they find out.
I do not understand why California has these useless laws on the books that force things like this. Is it really that hard to repeal them? It should simply be a matter of procedure, I can't imagine any opposition to it.
cclub79
I almost want to take a trip back down to Delaware to examine the machine with greater scrutiny. If I get a chance to, I will. I can also ask someone there why this does not break the rule against table games in the state. I guess I'll have to do it before they actually introduce table games in a couple of months. I suppose it could have to do with the definition of table games in Delaware. Maybe it can be random and based on the actual spin, as long as the bets are taken electronically. Or maybe it's predetermined. I'll try to make it there in a couple of weeks (there's less incentive now that NFL is over and there will be no sports betting till September).
cclub79
Well, I'm living in Mass now, so I doubt I'll get to Delaware before table games start to check out the quasi-Roulette, but check out the wheel that they have that apparently isn't a table game in Rhode Island. It's like we described above, and you can get a better look at the wheel:
http://www.twinriver.com/virtualgames.php
(Yuck Double Zero)
But it must be something with a magnet...those slots on each number look interesting. I'm definitely going to make a trip sooner rather than later to see if I can figure out how it works...
konceptum
Arizona Indian casinos have the virtual craps and virtual roulette. The craps I understand, as it is just an electronic image of dice. But I never did understand the virtual roulette, as it does seem to use a real ball with a real wheel, just no live croupier.
Trying to do an Internet search to find out the reasons for these things seem to be impossible. At best, I could only determine that the only reason Arizona casinos do not have live craps and live roulette is simply because they haven't been approved. (Although I did find a news article from a year ago that it was proposed to state legislature to allow craps and roulette. However, I could not find out whatever happened to this proposal.)
Trying to find the same information for California was doubly difficult. About the only thing I could find were people who 'claim' to know the reason, but with no factual information. And a quick peruse through the California statutes was no help.
However, I did find something interesting while reading one of the tribal gaming compacts. Specifically:

IV. TESTING OF GAMING DEVICES
A. The following new Section 7.5 is added as follows:
Section 7.5. Testing of Gaming Devices.
(a) No Gaming Device may be offered for play unless:
...
(ii) The software for the game authorized for play on the
Gaming Device has been tested, approved and certified
by an independent or state governmental gaming test
laboratory (the “Gaming Test Laboratory”) as operating
in accordance with either the standards of Gaming
Laboratories International, Inc. known as GLI-11 and
GLI-12, or the technical standards approved by the State
of Nevada, or such other technical standards as the State
Gaming Agency and the Tribal Gaming Agency shall
agree upon, ...


Valley(Edited by me to highlight what I want to show.)
Turns out that Gaming Laboratories International has a website. http://www.gaminglabs.com/default.asp and their information is public knowledge.

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According to their own PDF file on GLI-11:
Quote: GLI-11

4.3.10 Mechanical Based RNG Games. Mechanical based RNG games are games that use the laws of physics to generate the outcome of the game. All mechanical based RNG games must meet the requirements of this document with the exception of Sections 4.3.4, 4.3.5, and 4.3.9 that dictate the requirements for electronic random number generators. In addition, mechanical based RNG games must meet the following rules:
a) The test laboratory will test via PC communications multiple iterations to gather enough data to verify the randomness. In addition, the manufacturer may supply live data to assist in this evaluation;
b) The mechanical pieces must be constructed of materials to prevent decomposition of any component over time (e.g., a ball shall not disintegrate);
c) The properties of physical items used to chose [sic] the selection shall not be altered; and
d) The player shall not have the ability to physically interact or come into physical contact or manipulate the machine physically with the mechanical portion of the game.
Note: The laboratory reserves the right to require replacement parts after a pre-determined amount of time for the game to comply with Rule 4.3.10(b) above. In addition, the device(s) may require periodic inspections to ensure the integrity of the device. Each mechanical based RNG game shall be reviewed on a case-by-case basis.

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Based on their own hype, verification by their company will virtually assure acceptance of a gambling machine under most jurisdictions.

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Anyway, it would appear that this concept of a 'mechanical based RNG' is what would allow these virtual roulette machines to be accepted by California and Arizona. The requirement of Rule 4.3.10 would also explain why the ball and wheel are kept apart from the players terminals, as well as being completely enclosed (at least, the ones I've seen are like that). So it seems that nobody tried to find a loophole in what kind of games were allowed, but rather found a loophole on what could be classified as an RNG.
pacomartin
The regulations do not say no balls or dice, they say that whatever is creating the random number generation must be impervious to outside influences. You could never say that about dice or balls that are routinely touched by either the patron or the dealer.
I think I see the relevant rule change between version 1.3 and version 2.0 of the standard that allowed this roulette game to be approved.
Version 1.3 required an independent party verify that the machines are not affected by magnetic interference. Version 2.0 removes this requirement and the says that the manufacturer is ultimately responsible for the integrity of the game, and the independent analyst only has to do a cursory review of the documents submitted.
A lot of regulations go back to the old axiom that you can't prove a negative. Under the old regulations you can never prove that a device with a magnet cannot be interfered with. Under the new regulations they only certify that the game withstood the tests that were performed.
It seems like a subtle difference, but typically what happens is that the manufacturer simply avoids magnets and balls in his design, because he knows that you can always create a test that will interfere. Under the new regulations he only has to show that it would be unreasonable for a casino patron to have such a device in his coat pocket.
If I haven't beaten this point to death enough, you would be unlikely to design a gaming machine that uses magnets and balls that could withstand interference from the magnet in this picture.
However, this industrial magnet may also be a problem. The independent regulatory agency may find a problem with this magnet and not certify the device. Whereas if you put the certification responsibility on the manufacturer he might successfully write up a review that the gambling device is immune to magnetic interference from any reasonable magnet that a patron could carry into a casino.
We had a similar problem with active sonar and whales and dolphins. Most animals can easily outswim a navy vessel while it is operating in surveillance mode. It is easy to acknowledge that if an animal is 2 yards from the transducer projecting at full power it will get permanent hearing damage if not worse. You can try to argue that it is unnatural for an animal to swim that close to something projecting that much acoustic energy, just as it would be unreasonable to think that a teenager could get so drunk that he falls asleep on a commercial loudspeaker. But it is impossible to prove a negative. Lawyers use something called the precautionary principle which if properly used will prevent almost any design from being approved.
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